Episode 6: Detective Lynch & the Witness

[00:00:03] Going down the avenue, so if Ricky actually did do it, would it be possible for Brian or Walt to not be aware that he did it?

[00:00:15] I guess technically that would probably be possible. But remember, he's just committed what to anybody would be the most horrific act in his life.

[00:00:28] The woman that he professes that he loves, the woman that he spends the bulk of his time with when he's not working, we're not going to classes.

[00:00:40] He has just slaughtered her and thrown her in a ditch and then he's going to drive back home and then he's just going to be sitting there watching TV when his roommates come in. Is it possible? Yes, of course that's possible. But is that likely? Doesn't seem likely.

[00:00:58] You know, doesn't seem likely. Who Killed Beth-Ellen Episode 6 This is John Lynch, one of the original lead detectives on the case.

[00:01:26] And jumping back to the interrogation of Ricky this first couple days or first day, walk me through what that was like when you get him down to the station.

[00:01:38] What you're going to do is start off with a bunch of biographical information. You're going to try and get some family history from him.

[00:01:44] You're going to find a kind of get, understand the relationship of the people he's living with and what he does for a living and does he go to school and that kind of thing.

[00:01:54] So basically just kind of talking about his background and then get into the events of the evening, let him tell it, not interject a lot. Just let him tell the story of what happened because when he tells you the story, again, you're looking for clues.

[00:02:08] You're looking for how is he telling me this? Is he leaving something significant out? Is he kind of like really vague on one aspect of this thing but really certain on these other aspects of things?

[00:02:20] And you're doing a normal investigative criminal interview where you're talking to somebody and you're just trying to take in as much data as possible.

[00:02:28] And you're doing it with somebody else in the room. You're not sitting there by yourself trying to write down everything he says as he says it. So not only are you watching for his reactions, the person that's in there with you is watching for their reactions.

[00:02:41] And then there probably were people watching through the two-way mirror listening on the intercom as to how the interview was going. That was really a common practice for major crimes back in the day. Everybody would kind of like gather around and listen to the interview

[00:02:56] because they want to hear what the guy has to say and then they're going to think, okay, well, here's a question I've got based on what he said or here's another question. They're going to write those things down and then when you come out

[00:03:06] and take a break, someone's going to say, okay, ask them about this. Ask them that. Hey, he acted this way when you said that. Ask him this thing again. And that's how it's going to go. It's very non-confrontational.

[00:03:16] It's basically gathering data and trying to get the person to tell you as much as they know about what happened. And how long did that interrogation take? And was it multiple teams going in there or how did that work?

[00:03:30] The initial investigation would have probably been fairly lengthy. The subsequent investigations or interviews which were done when basically he was tag-teamed by multiple investigators the night that he was polygraphed, it would have been much more

[00:03:47] confrontational for a fact. I know myself, I went in there with another detective from the other squad. We were basically switching off with other people. So I went in there with another detective.

[00:04:04] We basically took a crime scene investigation book in there and at a certain point in the interview we showed him pictures of decomposed bodies that were left out in the elements. And that was to elicit a reaction from him.

[00:04:20] You know, hey, do you want this? Do you want her to look like this? Do you want this to happen to her? Don't you want her to be found? Why don't you just tell us where she's at? You know, that kind of thing.

[00:04:34] None of that got any other kind of reaction except Peter's. And, you know, I mean he was just emotionally, emotionally, I don't know what the word is but he was very emotional about all of that.

[00:04:50] But not emotional I guess in a way that you all perceived as guilt of the, guilt of a crime? Right. Well, you would expect that if somebody had done, of course again at the time we did not know what had happened to her.

[00:05:12] We did not know she had been stabbed. We didn't know where she was. We didn't know anything about that. We were shooting in the dark, you know, to say that the body is left outside.

[00:05:20] We didn't know the body was outside. The body could have been any place. We didn't have a clue. But you have to try everything that you can think of to try and so you use these different techniques

[00:05:29] to kind of elicit responses from a suspect. But none of the reactions set off any kind of an alarms where people were saying, hmm, you know, he's very sensitive about that. When you show him that, he's very sensitive about that.

[00:05:42] No, we didn't get any of that. Not that he was cold and unfeeling but that it did not rise to the level that, you know, I don't know how to describe it. If you've been in an interview room with people

[00:05:56] and you've sat across the table from folks that have done heinous things and you're talking to them like you just met them on the street and there's nothing else going on.

[00:06:05] But then after a while from talking to them, you're actually going to get them to tell you things that are against their best interest. It happens every single day. And it's interview and interrogation techniques. And those techniques were used repeatedly

[00:06:19] over the course of several hours on Ricky and none of us came away thinking, you know, hey, this is the guy. This is our guy. We just got to get him. This just didn't happen. Tell me about the polygraph test and how that went.

[00:06:42] Well, the polygraph was a common tool back in 1994 that was used in major investigations for determining whether or not a subject had some significant stress at a certain point on certain questions. And so the polygraph was extremely operator-specific.

[00:07:04] You have a good operator, you get good results, you have a poor operator, you get poor results. We had a good operator. And the pre-interview is done where they ask a series of questions. The actual test is done where they ask another series of questions.

[00:07:21] And then a post-test interview is done where they're looking to solicit some kind of confession or admission or some kind of thing. And he fails the polygraph. Now, we were told ahead of time not to give him the polygraph.

[00:07:36] We were told by the operator, an experienced polygraph operator, he's too emotionally connected to this individual. He feels responsible for letting the individual go and do what she did that ultimately led to where she's at now.

[00:07:50] And he's got remorse, he's got emotion. He's not a good subject for a polygraph. But the decision was made by supervisors that he needed to be polygraphed. And so he was and he failed the polygraph, which was no big surprise.

[00:08:13] Well, I guess, what does everybody take away from that? Not much. You don't take much about that. If he had passed the polygraph, then people would be, people might sigh and say, you know, okay, so let's go somewhere else.

[00:08:26] But him failing it after what we were told and everything that he had been through, it wasn't a situation where we were going to, it wasn't make or break at that point. So it really had no significance. The polygraph does not replace a good investigation.

[00:08:42] The polygraph is inadmissible in court. The polygraph, like I say, is subjective. It's really dependent on the operator. So, you know, old-fashioned detective work and going out and finding things and actually talking to witnesses, getting physical evidence, that's what makes cases. Polygraphs don't make cases.

[00:09:01] Well, in the newspaper, I guess his sister was quoted as saying he failed the first, which he called a lie detector test, but then he eventually passed. Are you aware of that? No, actually I'm not aware of him taking any subsequent test anywhere.

[00:09:17] It could have happened in a private setting with a, you know, a private polygraph operator that he would have hired, but I'm not aware of any subsequent polygraphs that he was given. So what's your best theory of how Beth Ellen's car wound up parked where it was

[00:09:34] and what ultimately happened? Well, of course we don't know what ultimately happened, but I mean, we do know what happened to her. So in my theory, which is based on everything that I know, my best guess is that what happened is she was unfamiliar with the area.

[00:09:57] She was confused about which was north, which was south, which way to go. She found somebody in that lighted area by the car dealership that she felt was harmless enough to just pull up and ask them directions.

[00:10:16] And I think that's why her car is pulled directly into the curb, because I think there was another vehicle backed in right there. And that vehicle would have appeared to be a vehicle that would have been somebody that she could ask directions to.

[00:10:33] It could have been a record driver, it could have been a cab, it could have been something that looked like a police car, it could have been a security vehicle. It could have been anything that a person, a normal person would think,

[00:10:48] oh, there's somebody I can ask directions to. And in my opinion, it was the wrong person. It was not what she thought it was not a safe person to approach. And that person saw an opportunity, took advantage of it, got her out of the vehicle,

[00:11:07] got her into their vehicle, drove her 6-10th to a mile away, and then we know what happened. And why would that person have done that? For what reason? I personally think that the motivation was a sexual assault. That's just my opinion again.

[00:11:31] I think the person who she encountered interpreted her appearance, the time of night, the fact that she was by herself asking for directions to a hotel that she wasn't familiar with

[00:11:42] and the way she was dressed as that she was someone who worked basically as an escort or as a prostitute even. And that this person decided that they were going to take advantage of that situation.

[00:11:57] And I think that it's very clear to me that she was extracted from the vehicle because you've got the one shoe in the vehicle and the one shoe still on the body. And it just would have been if she had voluntarily gone somewhere,

[00:12:11] she would have put the other shoe on or she would have taken the other shoe off. Do you have any thoughts about what age would this perpetrator have been? Would it have been one or two people and anything else like that

[00:12:25] that you're just trying to speculate and paint the picture of who this suspect could have been? Yeah, again, this is all guesswork. But my guess would be you're talking about a male. You're talking about a male that's in relatively good physical condition.

[00:12:40] You're talking about a male that would have probably been closer to 30. I don't think this has been a teenager. I think you're talking about somebody that would have had a little bit of life experience with them.

[00:12:51] And then I think you're talking about somebody that would have been savvy enough to realize that they could easily overpower this person and get control of them. I think it was a single person by themselves because there were multiple people. I think we'd have a different crime scene.

[00:13:10] I think that the condition of the body would suggest that the weapon was probably used initially to control her and that at some point in time when the control from that weapon was relaxed or released, she could have broken away and maybe made a run for it.

[00:13:27] There might have been a brief chase, but that ultimately the suspect was able to inflict sufficient wounds to render her helpless. And since this information is being spread to a large audience in North Carolina, what else can be said to generate additional information along those lines?

[00:13:47] I think one of the problems that happened with this case is that several different times in the past there have been opportunities where there have been some media attention to the story and the story was slanted towards the boyfriend.

[00:14:01] And then people who might have had some information about somebody else or my weird uncle that was in town that weekend or whatever, they would have said, it's no big deal. I don't need to call because they've got the boyfriend.

[00:14:13] The boyfriend did it. They just can't prove the boyfriend did it. You have to look at this case based on the evidence. And for the boyfriend, the evidence just isn't there. Now if someone has some evidence on the boyfriend, they definitely need to call.

[00:14:26] They definitely need to share that. If somebody has evidence about somebody else, definitely they need to call. They need to share that. If they had somebody back in 1994, in August of 1994 that for all of a sudden just decided they're here today

[00:14:42] and then all of a sudden they're gone. They've left town. They just for no inexplicable reason they just decided to leave town suddenly in the middle of August in 1994. That would be something of interest.

[00:14:53] Every tip we get in whatever direction it points is being followed up on and run down. Keep them coming. Last month, Beth Ellen's friend Karen texted me this. So after each episode I get messages from different people from high school and I just got this one.

[00:15:25] This was the message. My sister had a friend she doesn't want to say who that knew those guys. She said that one night while they were all hanging out, Walt and Brian admitted that Ricky asked them to lie about his alibi

[00:15:43] and that when they got back from Walmart he wasn't at the apartment. After getting that text from Karen, I spoke with her on the phone. She connected me with the writer of that text and I spoke with that family. They all knew the friend where this information originated.

[00:16:07] The friend wants to stay anonymous at least for the time being. So I won't reference whether they're male or female. We'll just call the person with the information the witness. The family told me they've known the witness for over 30 years from before Beth Ellen's murder.

[00:16:25] When I asked if it was a possibility that the witness was just making up a story, without hesitation they said no. And what's crazy is the same day Karen received that initial text she also got a Facebook message from another person who wanted to talk to her

[00:16:46] about what they heard over the years. Karen got on the phone with this other person and they told Karen this same witness made a comment in the past referencing this same information. I interviewed that person.

[00:17:00] They told me that they took a summer class in either 95 or 96 with the witness and that's when this information was referenced. So this witness is not just making up information for this podcast. The witness has a history of talking about this over the years.

[00:17:20] It took the aforementioned family a few days to convince the witness to talk to me. For reasons we can't get into, they initially did not want to go down this road with me and the podcast. But they decided it was the right thing to do for Beth Ellen.

[00:17:43] I interviewed this witness over text. Certain information in our text conversation has to be omitted to protect the witness's anonymity. But their account of the significant information is unedited. Karen will be reading the witness's texts. Good morning Matt. I want to stay anonymous with this information.

[00:18:09] I don't know if Rick killed Beth Ellen or not. I've just always hated that I was told these things. I just want to stay anonymous and would rather text. This is what I was told.

[00:18:21] Brian told me not too long after Beth Ellen's murder that Rick asked he and his other roommate to lie and say he was at Walmart with them at the time of the murder. I can't remember if Brian said he did lie for him or was just asked to.

[00:18:44] During this same conversation, Brian said that Beth Ellen had asked Brian to tell Rick that she wanted to break up with him, that she was too scared to. Brian told her she would have to do that herself.

[00:19:03] We both had been drinking alcohols when he told me these things. I have never forgotten this conversation almost 30 years later. Feel free to ask me any questions. Good morning. Texting works fine. First, let's start with prior to Brian telling you that.

[00:19:27] How well did you know Brian and Rick? How many times did you hang out with him prior to when Brian told you what he told you? I knew all three of them very well. We all hung out at their apartment.

[00:19:41] We hung out multiple times over the years prior to. So moving on to that night, why were you all hanging out that night? Where were you when he told you that? Who else was hanging out?

[00:19:52] As many details as you can remember about that night leading up to what he said. Please. We were in Brian's bedroom. I cannot remember who all was there that night unfortunately. I'm almost positive Rick was there but not in the bedroom with us.

[00:20:08] Do you remember who their fourth roommate was? Walt Acock. Rick, Brian, Walt and wasn't there a fourth? Ed Draper. Ah, got it. You think Walt and Ed were there that night too? It's possible but I'm not positive.

[00:20:27] So you don't remember hanging out with any of those other guys that night other than Brian? I'm getting nights mixed up together. I think Rick was there too.

[00:20:38] There was a time I remember talking to Rick right after the murder but I'm not positive it was that same night. The night that Brian told you that, did y'all go to a bar earlier and then go back to their place?

[00:20:52] Or do you feel like you just drank at their place? I'm just asking questions to help jog your memory. It's okay if you don't remember that night exactly. I can't remember if we had gone out to a bar that particular night or not.

[00:21:04] Prior to the murder how many times would you estimate that you hung out at their apartment? Maybe five or so. Was Beth Ellen living at their apartment when you were hanging out there? No, I never met Beth Ellen or was at the apartment when she lived there.

[00:21:18] After the murder how many times did you figure you hung out at their apartment? That I'm not sure. I'd say at least two or three times after. So going back to that night you were in Brian's room when he said that.

[00:21:31] Yes, it sticks in my mind that Rick had already been interrogated when Brian said this. I just remember him saying the part that he thought he would spend the rest of his life seeing his brother behind bars. Remember if Brian said he had been interrogated?

[00:21:52] I don't even know if Brian was ever interrogated. Yes, I believe Brian was too. So if he didn't talk about that likely it hadn't happened yet. That could help with the timeline. I did not remember him ever telling me that he had been.

[00:22:06] Okay good to know. What were y'all drinking that night? Beer or liquor or both? I'm just trying to estimate how many drinks each of you would have had when he told you. I drank beer. I'm not sure what he was drinking but we had drank a lot.

[00:22:20] And about what time would he have told you this? It would have been late. Early morning hours. 2 a.m. good estimate? Yes. Going line by line of what you remembered he said. I copied and pasted what they initially text so we can really drill down on it.

[00:22:40] Reading it back to the witness. Brian told me not too long after Beth Ellen's murder that Rick asked he and his other roommate to lie and say he was at Walmart with them at the time of the murder.

[00:22:53] I can't remember if Brian said he did lie for him or was just asked to. Yes. I was told by Karen who was told by the people that texted her that you remembered Rick telling them to lie and say he was at home

[00:23:09] when they got back from Walmart. Is that not right? No. Brian said that Rick asked him to say that he was at Walmart with them. Did Brian say why he wanted them to say that? No. He just said Rick asked him to say that.

[00:23:33] Do you remember Brian bringing up Walt at all? I remember him saying Walt was at Walmart with him. I'm not sure who all else went. So your understanding was Brian and Walt went to Walmart the early morning hours that Beth Ellen was murdered.

[00:23:52] At some point after Brian and Walt got back from Walmart, Rick asked Brian to say he was with them at Walmart. Yes, but I don't know exactly when Rick asked him to say that. I'm not sure if he asked Brian to say that that particular night or not.

[00:24:11] Right. You don't know if it was that same night, the early morning hours after Walmart or the following day or days. Correct. When Brian was telling you this, what was his demeanor? Concern, nervous. Was he crying or anything like that?

[00:24:30] No, I don't remember him crying. Just very serious and concerned. And when he said Rick asked him to say that he was at Walmart with them, to say that to who? The police. But it would be your understanding from what Brian said.

[00:24:52] Rick asked Brian to say this before Beth Ellen's body was found. I'm not sure on that. I'm not sure when he asked him to say that. I'm thinking yes, it was before her body was found, but I'm not certain.

[00:25:06] It seemed to me Rick asked him to say this early on. That was my impression of it. Okay. And you remember Brian adding any other detail about that night? What was going on that night before or after the Walmart trip? No, I don't remember any of that.

[00:25:24] And what do you remember thinking when Brian said Rick wanted them to say he was at Walmart with them? What was your take on what Brian was saying there? Why Rick wanted them to lie to the police about where he was?

[00:25:36] I thought it didn't sound good that he was asking Brian to lie to the police. It sounded to me like he was trying to have an alibi, rather than Rick just saying he was alone at the apartment. Got it.

[00:25:50] Just talking out loud here, it seems like Rick asking him that would had to have happened early on. Because everyone's story to the police was that Rick was alone at the apartment when they got back from Walmart. I believe it was very early on.

[00:26:08] If what the witness is saying is true, and the substance of what Brian told the witness is accurate, the conversation between Ricky and Brian, and presumably Walt, would have had to have happened sometime between Brian and Walt

[00:26:23] getting back from their Walmart run approximately 3 a.m. and Ricky showing up at Beth Ellen's car approximately 9 a.m. Because when Ricky starts talking to the officer at Beth Ellen's car, Masonic stokes, the story was Ricky was at home when Brian and Walt got back from Walmart

[00:26:42] and Beth Ellen had left about 10 to 15 minutes prior. So was Brian telling the witness that originally, Ricky's idea was for them to say he was at Walmart with them? And then they thought a better idea was to say he was just at the apartment.

[00:26:59] The cops could prove Ricky wasn't at Walmart if they got the surveillance footage, but they couldn't prove he wasn't at the apartment if Walt and Brian said he was.

[00:27:10] By Brian saying what he told you, did you get the feeling that Brian thought Rick had something to do with Beth Ellen's murder? I got the feeling that Brian wasn't sure if he did it or not.

[00:27:24] But I guess, why would you ask someone to lie to the police about where you were during a murder if you didn't have anything to do with it?

[00:27:36] I tried to look at it that way, maybe there's an explanation, but I haven't been able to figure out something that makes sense yet. Yes, I agree with you. The only other thing to consider is, maybe Brian made that up, but why would he do that?

[00:27:52] I don't believe he made it up. He seemed upset by it. Right. Next you texted, during the same conversation, Brian said that Beth Ellen had asked he, Brian, to tell Rick that she wanted to break up with him,

[00:28:07] that she was too scared to. Brian told her she would have to do that herself. Yes. Do you have any understanding of when Beth Ellen asked Brian to tell Rick this? How much prior to the murder? I don't know when.

[00:28:28] Do you have any idea why Beth Ellen would be too scared to break up with Rick? I don't. Ed Draper told me that Rick had become obsessed with Beth Ellen, and that he and the other roommates couldn't stand to be around him anymore.

[00:28:45] Ed told me this on a total different occasion. But if Rick was acting obsessed with Beth Ellen, that could be why she was scared. Do you remember if Ed told you that before or after the murder?

[00:29:07] I'm about 99% sure it was before, because I do not remember any mention of her being murdered at all. Did he say what he meant by acting obsessed? How so? I just remember him using the word obsessed to describe Rick's behavior.

[00:29:26] Do you have any knowledge or heard anything about Rick ever being violent in any way? I know all the time I wasn't there, but someone I know witnessed Rick being physically violent with a female in his wife. That was a few years after Beth Ellen.

[00:29:43] So he is capable of hurting a female? Yes. This probably doesn't add much, but I know that Rick and Brian grew up in a very violent household with their dad.

[00:29:58] David Merritt told me that also. Horrible what the whole family went through, but it does show a history of violence though. I agree. What he said to me, I've found to be very disturbing. I'm assuming that's why I still remember it.

[00:30:16] Did you ever talk about what Brian said that night to Brian again? No. Why not? It never came up again and I figured he probably didn't want to talk about it. Did you ever talk to Rick, Ed or Walt about what Brian told you?

[00:30:33] No. I think I was too scared to. I didn't know and still don't know if Rick was guilty and didn't feel like I should tell them. I told my friends and mom about it.

[00:30:44] I'm just trying to figure out why Brian would have confided information like that with you. I just seemed upset during the conversation. Maybe just wanted to vent. We were pretty good friends. Like I said, we were drinking. I'm not sure why he told me either.

[00:31:10] The witness went back and forth on whether they wanted to share their story over the podcast, but at the end of the day, they knew it was the right thing to do. And they hope now that the silence is broken, it will give others courage to come forward.

[00:31:29] Because of what the witness says is true, there have to be others out there that have heard things. Maybe like the witness, you don't have the whole puzzle. You figure, what's the point in coming forward?

[00:31:48] You just heard something a while back and you're not even sure if it can help to tell it. Maybe you have a similar story or know someone else who does. And like the witness, you don't want to get involved.

[00:32:01] You just want to keep your head down and hope that someone else with a bigger piece of the puzzle comes forward. And it gets resolved that way. I understand that. But it's that mentality that has kept this case unsolved.

[00:32:19] That's it. People have been unwilling to step up for Beth Ellen to step up and do the right thing. Getting involved will only take a few minutes out of your day. Beth Ellen's family have been waiting 30 years for you to get involved. This is Beth Ellen's Aunt Pansy.

[00:32:47] I remember when I was taking care of Penny when she had the dementia and of course she developed that. And we think a lot of that might have been brought on by the trauma of losing Beth Ellen because she just was never the same after that.

[00:33:03] But she did develop Parkinson's and eventually developed dementia because of that. But at that point in her life, she had Beth Ellen because I stayed with her and she talked to Beth Ellen and she saw Beth Ellen every day.

[00:33:21] Even when she was a little girl, she said, look it, I love that little dress on her. And she just talked about Beth Ellen all the time, the right shoes to go with her dress.

[00:33:50] And of course I told Bill that she was back there with Beth Ellen and Bill just shook his head. And he said, I guess, he said, I'd sure like to know the truth and like to know who did this. He said, I'd like to know before I die.

[00:34:13] He said, that's my wish. I would like to know before I die who did this to Beth Ellen. And that's what we're all hoping that somebody somewhere will come forward, know something, have heard something, been told something.

[00:34:31] And that they would be brave enough so that Bill can finally, would he not end good health right now? Finally, so Bill could have closure before he does. He would like to know what happened and why. And he did this to his little girl.

[00:34:51] Now's the time. Come forward and do the right thing. We're getting closer to the truth. We've got thousands of people, mostly North Carolinians, listening to each episode. People are thinking and talking about Beth Ellen again. This case has heated back up.

[00:35:26] We're generating more and more information, and we're just getting started. In August, there will be episode seven of the podcast and also a video episode of each crime scene and more interviews with some of the original officers on the case.

[00:35:48] And we'll be doing our first listener meetup in Goldsboro. Check out our social media and website for details on the meetup. And what you can also do this month is continue to spread the word about Beth Ellen, her case, and the podcast.

[00:36:05] Maybe the right person just hasn't heard it yet. If you have information about this case or know someone who might, call 1-866-TIPS-4BE. That's 866-847-7423 or email us at whokilledbethellanatgmail.com And like this episode, if you'd like to stay anonymous, you will.

[00:36:31] 2024, the year for closure for her family and justice for Beth Ellen. Thank you for listening and stay tuned.