In this episode, the initial investigators are interviewed and the locations of the crime scenes are examined.
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[00:00:22] These are the investigators on the case from day one. Thirty years later, they haven't given up. Some of these guys haven't seen or talked to each other in years, but they came out because there's unsettled business. That's the apartment that they were living at. Brian, Ricky, Walt, and Beth-Ellen. Here's what it would look like that night, Beth-Ellen driving to the innkeeper.
[00:00:47] There were basically two ways to get to the innkeeper. Turning right on Western and going up Capitol, or turning left and take the Beltline, Interstate 440. Because of where Beth-Ellen's car was found, and how Ricky showed up at her car, it seems most probable she took the Beltline, so I'll show you that route.
[00:01:13] When Beth-Ellen would have left out that Tuesday morning, between 2.30 and 3 a.m., there would have been a lot less traffic on the road. She would have turned on Western and merged onto the Beltline, heading up to Capitol Boulevard.
[00:02:16] So here's where it gets interesting. If Beth-Ellen had gone to the innkeeper motel, at this point she would have taken the exit for north on Capitol.
[00:02:25] Then she would have driven up Capitol about a mile and a half, and then made this U-turn, and then she would have been at the innkeeper.
[00:02:38] But there's really no indication that Beth-Ellen ever made it there that night.
[00:02:43] As you heard in Episode 4, there was a notation made by the Escort Service that Beth-Ellen called in to say the client wasn't there, but there was no phone call record to corroborate that.
[00:02:56] So, it doesn't seem like that call ever really happened.
[00:03:04] Going back to this exit, instead of going north for Capitol, she took the turn for south on Capitol, and immediately took this first exit that put her on this side street with multiple car lots.
[00:03:25] She turned left and pulled into the car lot down here, located at 2501 Capitol Boulevard.
[00:03:46] Okay, so we were on the service road right beside Capitol Boulevard at the first crime scene where the victim's car was recovered.
[00:03:53] Okay, I'm Monty Smothers. I was a detective for the police department at the time of the incident.
[00:03:58] Rick Grayson. I was a detective at the time of the murder.
[00:04:01] Marty Lutis. I was a fingerprint and footwear examiner. I was at the second scene where the body was recovered.
[00:04:08] John Lynch. At the time of this, in 1994, I was the detective on the Major Crimes Task Force.
[00:04:13] W.T. Lyles. I was a homicide investigator.
[00:04:16] Bill Hensley. I was the field supervisor for CCBI.
[00:04:20] I responded to the initial first scene where the car was, then worked the case all the way through, went to autopsy and everything.
[00:04:26] All right, you've placed the vehicle in approximately the space where the victim's vehicle was discovered.
[00:04:46] Again, this would have been at like about 3 o'clock in the morning where the victim's vehicle would have been here.
[00:04:51] My understanding and my recollection is that there was security at the car dealership every night except Monday night.
[00:04:57] And this would have been a Monday night. 5.30 in the morning, you've got about four individuals who are driving cars to deliver to this lot, this used car lot.
[00:05:07] They come up here. They spot the victim's vehicle. There's nobody around it. Driver's window is down. It's misty, rainy, which is unusual.
[00:05:14] So they are trying to get into the car dealership. They can't get in the car dealership sufficiently.
[00:05:19] They find another way to get in there and they leave after that.
[00:05:23] Then at about 7 or 7.30 in the morning, the management comes in for the car dealership.
[00:05:28] They actually decide they want the vehicle moved. So they call 911. Officer Stokes responds.
[00:05:33] He's out there doing the investigation on the abandoned vehicle that is basically just found there.
[00:05:38] It's found with the driver's window down, several items of clothing all in the car, including the victim's shoe.
[00:05:45] It's pretty obvious that the vehicle was simply left there and they go from there.
[00:05:50] When Stokes was there, tell me about your understanding of Ricky's own weapon scene.
[00:05:54] Well, at some point in time, in the early morning hours, Ricky decides he wants to, you know, she hasn't come home yet.
[00:06:00] So he wants to go out and he wants to look to see where she was.
[00:06:03] He was privy to the conversation the night before with the escort service and with the client.
[00:06:08] He knew where she was going to go. She wrote directions down on a piece of paper, which were actually found in the vehicle.
[00:06:14] So he knew that she was over on Capitol Boulevard.
[00:06:16] So he came in and basically my recollection is he made the same mistake that she did.
[00:06:21] He actually took the southbound inbound direction at first, which was very common.
[00:06:27] It's a very short distance between the exit and making your determination of which side you're going to go to go either north or to go south.
[00:06:35] A lot of people will make that mistake.
[00:06:36] And so he came down and when he came down, he looked over.
[00:06:40] He says his statement was that he saw the vehicle at that time, but he didn't really think too much about it.
[00:06:45] He circled back around, went back up north to find the innkeeper hotel.
[00:06:49] Don't know how long he was up there. I don't recollect that.
[00:06:51] And then at some point in time, he comes back down here, pulls over to this area and pulls up behind the vehicle and starts talking to the officer.
[00:07:00] That's my recollection.
[00:07:01] We found the vehicle pointed in this direction.
[00:07:04] We found the front driver's window down.
[00:07:07] We found clothing, male and female, in the vehicle.
[00:07:11] We found a shoe.
[00:07:12] And, you know, we were questioning why this vehicle was here without the operator.
[00:07:18] I got involved with the vehicle when it was at CCBI.
[00:07:21] I didn't come out here.
[00:07:23] So we didn't come in until 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
[00:07:26] But when we got the car down to CCBI, they were working on the car.
[00:07:30] And we were wondering, Bill and I were wondering, said, what if the car broke down?
[00:07:36] Wouldn't crank, wouldn't start.
[00:07:38] Allegedly, there was a problem with that.
[00:07:39] Found out through conversations with other people that she had been having trouble with it knocking off and then cranking right back up.
[00:07:46] We didn't know.
[00:07:46] I reached in the car, turning the ignition key, and the car cranked right up.
[00:07:52] Just like that.
[00:07:53] The key was gone.
[00:07:54] So, Heather who jerked the key out, didn't turn it completely off when they snatched it out.
[00:07:59] He or her, before we snatched it out.
[00:08:03] But the car cranked up, so we figured, didn't have a problem there.
[00:08:07] And then the investigation continued, and they were looking for fingerprints and so on and so on.
[00:08:11] But that's where I first saw the car.
[00:08:13] Was there anything in the vehicle that indicated that there were people in a kind of struggle in the vehicle?
[00:08:19] How could you tell?
[00:08:20] There was clothes everywhere.
[00:08:22] The thing was a mess.
[00:08:23] The key was not off.
[00:08:24] Yeah.
[00:08:24] You got a 17-year-old girl living out of her vehicle.
[00:08:26] That was her closet.
[00:08:27] Well, her and her boyfriend had gone to see her brother up near Asheville Hickory or somewhere the weekend prior to this, right?
[00:08:33] Yeah.
[00:08:34] Or the day before.
[00:08:34] Well, it was the weekend before.
[00:08:36] Okay.
[00:08:36] And he still had some clothes in the car from that trip.
[00:08:40] She had some jewelry missing.
[00:08:43] And either she took the jewelry off and put it in a bag or something inside of her car, or somebody took it off of her.
[00:08:50] All of the ring descriptions, the car key descriptions, the purse descriptions, they're all public knowledge now.
[00:08:56] So what we don't know, again, is we don't know whether she took the rings off in anticipation of going to the call.
[00:09:02] We don't know if she put them in her purse.
[00:09:04] We don't know if they were removed after the crime happened.
[00:09:07] She routinely would wear the purse slung across her shoulder one side or the other.
[00:09:12] It could be pretty much assumed, since it wasn't in the car and it wasn't in the apartment and it wasn't out here and it wasn't over there, that she had it on her body.
[00:09:20] So at some point in time, that becomes separated from her.
[00:09:23] Was it separated because it was taken as somebody stealing something?
[00:09:28] Or did it just fall off in the car while she's being transported?
[00:09:32] We don't know.
[00:09:33] We know it's not there.
[00:09:34] We know it hasn't been found.
[00:09:36] So in the car, she did have directions from the apartment?
[00:09:39] Yeah, she had directions.
[00:09:40] I think they were very minimal directions.
[00:09:41] So we took the vehicle in.
[00:09:43] We processed the vehicle for prints, processed the vehicle for fibers.
[00:09:48] We checked everything else on the vehicle.
[00:09:50] Bill came over.
[00:09:51] He checked the ignition.
[00:09:52] Marty Lutis and Johnny Leonard also worked around the vehicle as far as latent examination.
[00:09:58] At that time, we just didn't have it.
[00:10:00] There was no fluids.
[00:10:01] There was just nothing that we had.
[00:10:04] We got a print off of the outside door.
[00:10:08] It was later identified, but we did not have very much to go on at that time.
[00:10:13] Whose print was identified?
[00:10:16] That print was identified, I am told, to her boyfriend.
[00:10:20] But Ricky had access to Beth Ellen's car.
[00:10:31] So that doesn't prove anything.
[00:10:34] They were living together.
[00:10:38] And days prior to her car being found, in that same vehicle, they had just taken about a three-hour road trip each way from Raleigh to Hickory to visit Beth Ellen's brother.
[00:10:48] So Ricky's fingerprints being found on her vehicle is to be expected.
[00:10:54] It is interesting that no other fingerprints were identified on the vehicle, though.
[00:10:58] Was the killer wearing gloves?
[00:11:00] Would they have even had time to put on gloves?
[00:11:03] Or were they simply able to abduct her from the vehicle without leaving a print on it?
[00:11:07] Well, you've got to understand, at that particular time, these trees weren't any more than maybe eight, nine feet tall.
[00:11:27] They did not obstruct a view of the road or anything.
[00:11:31] And this area was a place, the farmer's market over here was a place, that you had a lot of transient people and things of that nature.
[00:11:38] So from here, you could see the vehicle.
[00:11:41] And, you know, you could see the vehicle all around.
[00:11:44] And, I mean, it was open.
[00:11:47] And there was just no sign of which way she went.
[00:11:50] Yeah, there have been some depictions and stories that have been done on this case that it was a secluded side road.
[00:11:56] It's not a secluded side road.
[00:11:58] I mean, you can look right here.
[00:12:00] And anybody coming inbound or outbound can look over and see this dealership and see what's going on in front of the dealership.
[00:12:05] The characterization is the secluded side road that she pulled off on.
[00:12:08] That's not really accurate.
[00:12:10] Her car would have been visible by any number of people.
[00:12:13] I mean, everybody was running in 20 different directions, following up on one lead or another,
[00:12:19] concentrating on the person that she left and the person that she was headed to.
[00:12:23] The investigation concluded that she never got to the hotel room.
[00:12:28] Again, we can't say she never made it to the hotel, but it's very unlikely she made it to the hotel
[00:12:32] because she would have been at the hotel at approximately the same time as another subject that was also interviewed that was coming out of the room.
[00:12:40] So we feel pretty confident.
[00:12:42] I think everybody feels confident she never made it to the hotel.
[00:12:46] So we see the vehicle there, like where you've got that vehicle right there.
[00:12:49] Why is that vehicle there?
[00:12:51] You know, is it there because somebody pulled her over?
[00:12:54] Is it there because she just decided to stop there?
[00:12:56] You know, why is it there?
[00:12:58] But the simplest explanation is that she took the wrong turn.
[00:13:02] She needed some place to try and figure out where she was going to go.
[00:13:05] So you see, when you come up this ramp here, because I came up here that way this morning, there's an exit sign.
[00:13:10] It makes more sense to me that the vehicle was pulled in in order to ask somebody for directions,
[00:13:16] to pull in beside another vehicle.
[00:13:19] That's why your driver's window is down.
[00:13:22] You didn't put your shoe back on because you're not planning on getting out of the car.
[00:13:25] You're just going to ask a question.
[00:13:27] And so in order to ask a question, you've got to roll your window down.
[00:13:31] And to me, the more logical assumption is there was another vehicle parked there
[00:13:36] and that she pulled over to ask that person a question.
[00:13:40] So you pull in here.
[00:13:41] It's a well-lit, semi-well-lit area at 3 o'clock in the morning.
[00:13:45] You're going to pull over and try to figure out where you're going.
[00:13:47] That's my opinion.
[00:13:50] It doesn't mean that's what happened.
[00:13:52] It means that's my opinion.
[00:13:54] What we know for sure is that she didn't leave this place walking with a 2-inch heel on one foot.
[00:14:01] There had to be another vehicle.
[00:14:03] There had to be what we'll call a suspect vehicle.
[00:14:06] So that vehicle was here at that point and took her away
[00:14:11] because she's not going to walk six-tenths of a mile down this road
[00:14:14] and make a couple of turns and stuff to get to where she wound up.
[00:14:18] Well, you have to know there's a second vehicle.
[00:14:20] And what we know is that she just, poof, vanishes.
[00:14:29] Where Beth Helen was taken was less than a mile away.
[00:14:31] The killer abducted her from her vehicle,
[00:14:34] got back on the Capitol briefly,
[00:14:37] took this first right onto Hodges,
[00:14:39] taking her off the main drag
[00:14:41] and into more of an industrial, less-traveled area,
[00:14:44] then took the first left onto Laurelbrook,
[00:14:46] which curved around to Wicker.
[00:14:50] With Atlantic another main road coming up,
[00:14:53] the killer pulled into this first parking lot.
[00:14:56] The body was six-tenths of a mile away from the car.
[00:15:02] When the car was initially found,
[00:15:05] one of the detectives on our squad said
[00:15:07] that she'll be found within a half mile,
[00:15:09] and he was wrong.
[00:15:11] But that half mile was a 360-degree mile.
[00:15:15] So we had selective enforcement units
[00:15:17] and officers searching the wooded areas around the belt line,
[00:15:20] the wooded areas all the way down one side or the other.
[00:15:25] From the time that that car was found,
[00:15:29] we knew something was wrong,
[00:15:31] and the Raleigh Police Department did everything they could.
[00:15:37] We're in Wicker Drive, the second crime scene.
[00:15:41] The victim's body was found across the street
[00:15:44] in what looks like a concrete swimming pool,
[00:15:47] for lack of a better term.
[00:15:49] Basically, the middle of that area over there
[00:15:52] was the ditch
[00:15:54] where the victim's body had been partially concealed.
[00:15:58] At the time, in 1994,
[00:16:00] it was heavily overgrown.
[00:16:01] It was sloped down on both sides,
[00:16:03] and it looks completely different
[00:16:05] from what it looks like now, obviously.
[00:16:07] But it was a very heavily wooded ditch.
[00:16:10] You could not get from one side of the ditch to the other.
[00:16:12] You went around one end to the other.
[00:16:14] On the far end of the ditch,
[00:16:16] back where you see that brown building back there
[00:16:18] in the backhoe,
[00:16:18] that was also wooded,
[00:16:21] and it was a muddy, boggy field.
[00:16:24] The scene itself,
[00:16:26] when you found it that day,
[00:16:27] we had to walk very carefully
[00:16:30] because it was on a slope,
[00:16:32] and the ground was wet,
[00:16:33] and you would slide down it
[00:16:35] if you weren't careful.
[00:16:37] That building over there
[00:16:38] on the left-hand side of this ditch
[00:16:40] would have been the Fastener Supply Company.
[00:16:42] That's 1241.
[00:16:43] And 1245,
[00:16:45] where you see that open door
[00:16:46] and then the closed door,
[00:16:47] that was the Nationwide Mattress Warehouse.
[00:16:50] And the Nationwide Mattress Warehouse
[00:16:51] had a blue couch
[00:16:53] that was positioned off to the side
[00:16:56] in the grassy area beside the building.
[00:16:59] And then there was a large brown dumpster
[00:17:02] that all the material from the mattress wrapping
[00:17:04] and what have you would get thrown into it.
[00:17:07] And one of the things
[00:17:08] that we were particularly annoyed about
[00:17:10] back in the day
[00:17:11] was that during the intervening week
[00:17:13] between the murder
[00:17:14] and the time the body meeting
[00:17:17] had been disposed of
[00:17:18] in the dumpster
[00:17:19] that was right here
[00:17:20] in this room.
[00:17:21] The diagram that I have looked at
[00:17:24] tells me that her feet
[00:17:25] were 56 feet
[00:17:28] on a diagonal
[00:17:29] from the corner of that building
[00:17:30] to the center of that ditch
[00:17:31] is about 56 feet.
[00:17:33] When they did
[00:17:34] the crime scene work that night
[00:17:36] which involved luminol,
[00:17:38] the blood started
[00:17:39] at about 29 feet.
[00:17:41] Beside that building
[00:17:42] as you get towards the woods,
[00:17:43] that's where the blood starts.
[00:17:45] And there are several areas
[00:17:46] of concentrated blood
[00:17:48] and blood spatter.
[00:17:50] Reactions in the trees.
[00:17:51] It was cast off.
[00:17:52] So whatever happened in there
[00:17:55] was extremely violent.
[00:17:57] There was a lot of blood.
[00:17:58] And when you're talking about blood,
[00:18:00] and Bill can talk about this more,
[00:18:02] the transfer effect
[00:18:03] onto the suspect,
[00:18:05] there was no getting away
[00:18:06] from the fact that the suspect
[00:18:07] would have left there
[00:18:08] completely covered
[00:18:10] in the victim's blood.
[00:18:12] I don't think there's any way
[00:18:13] the suspect could leave
[00:18:14] that scene
[00:18:15] without having cuts on himself.
[00:18:18] Yeah, that's very possible.
[00:18:20] I just feel like
[00:18:21] that's probably what happened.
[00:18:23] He had to have had
[00:18:24] some cuts on his hands
[00:18:26] from using that knife.
[00:18:28] Because the knife
[00:18:28] would have slipped through his hand.
[00:18:29] I think so, yeah.
[00:18:35] Thinking back about that time,
[00:18:37] do you remember anybody
[00:18:38] with a cut on their hand?
[00:18:41] This would have been
[00:18:42] the type of cut
[00:18:43] that would need
[00:18:44] more than a little band-aid.
[00:18:46] You didn't think
[00:18:47] anything of it back then.
[00:18:48] But now
[00:18:49] that you know
[00:18:50] that possible detail,
[00:18:58] and going down
[00:18:59] that line of thought,
[00:19:00] it's noteworthy
[00:19:01] that Ricky didn't have
[00:19:02] a cut on his hand
[00:19:03] when he was interrogated.
[00:19:05] Police would have
[00:19:05] picked up on that.
[00:19:08] Did the killer use
[00:19:09] a tactical knife
[00:19:10] with a guard
[00:19:11] or a pocket knife
[00:19:12] with some kind of grip
[00:19:13] so they didn't cut their hand?
[00:19:16] Or was the killer
[00:19:17] just able to stab
[00:19:18] Beth Ellen so many times
[00:19:20] and the knife
[00:19:21] never slipped?
[00:19:22] Could they determine
[00:19:23] that it really was a knife
[00:19:25] or could it have been
[00:19:26] something like an ice pick
[00:19:27] or a screwdriver?
[00:19:28] It was a knife.
[00:19:30] It was definitely a knife
[00:19:30] because there were cuts
[00:19:31] in the...
[00:19:32] I remember Bill
[00:19:32] with a gloved hand
[00:19:34] putting his blue glove
[00:19:35] underneath the dress.
[00:19:37] She had defensive wounds
[00:19:39] so she fought.
[00:19:40] She was stabbed
[00:19:40] 15 to 20 times.
[00:19:42] The victim had
[00:19:43] stab wounds
[00:19:44] to the front,
[00:19:44] to the neck area,
[00:19:46] to the back,
[00:19:47] to the arms,
[00:19:47] defensive wounds.
[00:19:48] So there was
[00:19:49] a violent fight,
[00:19:51] suspect armed with a knife
[00:19:52] and the victim
[00:19:54] at some point
[00:19:54] is bleeding out
[00:19:56] and stops fighting
[00:19:58] and lays on the ground
[00:19:59] and lays on the ground
[00:20:00] in one particular spot
[00:20:01] for some period of time.
[00:20:03] Enough time
[00:20:03] for blood to soak out
[00:20:04] from the body
[00:20:05] onto that ground.
[00:20:07] And then the victim
[00:20:07] was moved
[00:20:08] a second time
[00:20:09] to another area
[00:20:10] just a few feet away
[00:20:11] closer to where
[00:20:12] she ultimately laid
[00:20:13] but a few feet away
[00:20:14] where she also laid
[00:20:15] for a while
[00:20:16] until she was dragged
[00:20:18] to the final place
[00:20:19] where she was rolled down
[00:20:21] into the ditch
[00:20:22] and then the trees
[00:20:23] in the ditch
[00:20:24] actually stopped her body
[00:20:25] from going completely
[00:20:26] through the ditch bank
[00:20:28] and winding up
[00:20:28] on the other side.
[00:20:29] And the cardboard,
[00:20:30] he had to go back
[00:20:32] to the dumpster
[00:20:33] and go back
[00:20:35] and put the cardboard
[00:20:36] over when he pushed
[00:20:38] her down the hill.
[00:20:39] And then I don't know
[00:20:40] what the water
[00:20:40] would have been
[00:20:41] at that time
[00:20:42] but there was certainly
[00:20:43] water filled in that ditch
[00:20:44] at that time.
[00:20:45] Six, eight inches or so.
[00:20:47] Was there evidence
[00:20:48] that a sexual assault
[00:20:49] did happen?
[00:20:50] No.
[00:20:50] We've always worked
[00:20:51] on the assumption
[00:20:51] that there was not
[00:20:52] a sexual assault
[00:20:53] because of the panties.
[00:20:54] That's it.
[00:20:54] I don't know what kind
[00:20:55] of panties she had
[00:20:55] because she flashed
[00:20:56] the boyfriend
[00:20:57] before she left
[00:20:57] the apartment.
[00:20:58] He gave us a good
[00:20:58] description of the panties.
[00:21:00] Yeah.
[00:21:00] One of the initial things
[00:21:01] that caused us
[00:21:02] a lot of problems
[00:21:03] was that in room 118
[00:21:04] of the innkeeper
[00:21:05] where she was supposed
[00:21:06] to be going
[00:21:06] there was a pair
[00:21:07] of loose panties
[00:21:08] in the room
[00:21:08] and they were similar color
[00:21:10] to what the victim
[00:21:11] was reported.
[00:21:12] Weren't they blue?
[00:21:12] We were described
[00:21:13] as purple, blue.
[00:21:14] Bottom line is
[00:21:15] when we found
[00:21:16] those panties
[00:21:16] behind the door
[00:21:17] we thought we had it
[00:21:18] because they were
[00:21:18] our panties.
[00:21:19] Now this happens
[00:21:19] in the intervening week
[00:21:20] before the body
[00:21:21] is found.
[00:21:22] When we find the body
[00:21:23] there's the panties
[00:21:24] that are perfectly
[00:21:24] intact on the victim.
[00:21:26] The theory has always
[00:21:27] worked that we don't
[00:21:28] think she was
[00:21:29] sexually assaulted
[00:21:29] but we had a 48 hour
[00:21:31] window to get the
[00:21:32] physical, the DNA
[00:21:33] type evidence
[00:21:35] and obviously
[00:21:35] we missed that window.
[00:21:37] The body was just
[00:21:38] too badly decomposed.
[00:21:40] Like I said
[00:21:41] it was,
[00:21:41] it was really bad shape.
[00:21:43] So we had to get
[00:21:44] dental impressions
[00:21:45] to identify her
[00:21:47] and that was my role.
[00:21:48] I went to Goldsboro
[00:21:50] right after the body
[00:21:51] was recovered
[00:21:52] and got the dental
[00:21:55] records from
[00:21:55] her hometown.
[00:21:57] Aside from the
[00:21:58] stab wounds
[00:21:59] what other wounds
[00:22:00] were through her body?
[00:22:01] Bruising to the trunk
[00:22:02] of the body
[00:22:03] you know
[00:22:04] in this area
[00:22:05] and then there was
[00:22:07] a bruise to the head
[00:22:08] so
[00:22:09] and scratches
[00:22:10] through the head
[00:22:11] but mostly
[00:22:12] the stab wounds
[00:22:13] were prominent
[00:22:13] all over
[00:22:14] on the hands.
[00:22:15] Talk about the tooth.
[00:22:16] When he got back
[00:22:17] to identify with the teeth
[00:22:18] we found that
[00:22:19] one of the teeth
[00:22:19] were broken
[00:22:20] but I would probably
[00:22:21] say the consensus
[00:22:23] would be that
[00:22:23] the tooth was
[00:22:24] knocked out
[00:22:25] during the altercation.
[00:22:26] It could have been
[00:22:26] knocked out
[00:22:26] during the initial
[00:22:27] altercation
[00:22:28] at the vehicle
[00:22:28] or it could have been
[00:22:29] knocked out
[00:22:29] at the altercation
[00:22:30] beside the building.
[00:22:31] Do you think
[00:22:32] that there's any
[00:22:32] physical evidence
[00:22:34] in the clothing
[00:22:35] the cardboard box
[00:22:36] that potentially
[00:22:37] could still be tested
[00:22:38] DNA tested today?
[00:22:40] Yeah.
[00:22:40] Of course there is.
[00:22:41] All the evidence
[00:22:42] has been preserved
[00:22:43] so DNA technology
[00:22:44] is changing every day.
[00:22:46] I would presume
[00:22:47] and correct me
[00:22:48] if I'm wrong
[00:22:48] that they would
[00:22:49] go back to it
[00:22:50] and check the clothing
[00:22:51] or anything
[00:22:51] to see if there's
[00:22:52] anything that they
[00:22:53] could do
[00:22:53] with the new
[00:22:55] DNA process.
[00:22:56] The problem
[00:22:57] with it
[00:22:57] is that
[00:22:58] with DNA testing
[00:23:00] you're going to
[00:23:00] consume a sample.
[00:23:02] So when you do it
[00:23:04] it's like a one shot gun.
[00:23:05] You know
[00:23:06] we're going to test
[00:23:06] this little piece
[00:23:07] right here
[00:23:07] but we won't have
[00:23:08] that piece after this.
[00:23:09] So you have to
[00:23:10] really document it
[00:23:11] and then
[00:23:12] you know
[00:23:12] it may be destroyed
[00:23:14] by the testing.
[00:23:15] Use the evidence up.
[00:23:17] You have to make up
[00:23:18] your mind
[00:23:19] what's worth it.
[00:23:20] What's worth it.
[00:23:21] Now was it one suspect?
[00:23:22] Was it two suspects?
[00:23:23] How many suspects?
[00:23:25] You know
[00:23:26] we always theorize
[00:23:27] that if it was more
[00:23:28] than one suspect
[00:23:28] they would have done
[00:23:29] a better job
[00:23:29] of controlling her.
[00:23:30] If she was under control
[00:23:32] we'd have a different
[00:23:33] in my opinion
[00:23:33] we'd have a different
[00:23:34] crime scene
[00:23:35] if she was under control.
[00:23:36] Once she started resisting
[00:23:37] once she started fighting
[00:23:39] the fight was on.
[00:23:40] Talk about if it's a case
[00:23:45] that still can be solved.
[00:23:46] Somebody needs to come forward.
[00:23:48] Yeah and that's what
[00:23:49] we always hoped for.
[00:23:50] We'd hoped that there'd be
[00:23:51] a jailhouse confession
[00:23:52] where there would be
[00:23:53] somebody that would say
[00:23:54] something to someone
[00:23:55] that would then
[00:23:56] and we had people
[00:23:57] that made statements
[00:23:57] over the course of time.
[00:23:59] I remember Rick
[00:24:00] had a guy with a body wire
[00:24:01] up there
[00:24:01] up on top of that hill
[00:24:03] over there one night
[00:24:04] just waiting for him
[00:24:05] to say the right things.
[00:24:06] It didn't happen
[00:24:07] because the guy
[00:24:07] was just boasting.
[00:24:08] But we all thought
[00:24:10] that it would be solved
[00:24:11] by now
[00:24:12] and we all hope
[00:24:14] that Raleigh PD
[00:24:15] continues to put
[00:24:17] investigators on it
[00:24:18] put fresh eyes on it
[00:24:19] and let people look at it.
[00:24:21] The worst thing
[00:24:21] that you can do
[00:24:22] in this case
[00:24:23] is to make a decision
[00:24:24] that the boyfriend
[00:24:25] did it
[00:24:26] and then that's
[00:24:27] the end of it.
[00:24:27] That's not going to get
[00:24:28] the case solved
[00:24:29] because even if he did
[00:24:31] do it
[00:24:31] you still have to find
[00:24:32] some other way
[00:24:32] to get to it.
[00:24:33] It wasn't there
[00:24:34] in 1994
[00:24:36] and it hasn't been there
[00:24:37] in the 30 years since.
[00:24:39] So you have to start
[00:24:40] thinking outside the box.
[00:24:41] Reality of it
[00:24:42] this is Matt Duff's
[00:24:43] investigation now.
[00:24:45] If you have information
[00:24:46] get up with Matt Duff
[00:24:48] so he can put
[00:24:49] all of it
[00:24:50] everything that he's
[00:24:51] found out
[00:24:52] he's the one
[00:24:53] that came in
[00:24:53] with fresh eyes.
[00:24:55] Get up with Matt Duff.
[00:24:58] I don't want to hurt
[00:24:58] Raleigh's feelings
[00:25:00] about this
[00:25:00] but I don't feel
[00:25:03] positive that there's
[00:25:04] physical evidence
[00:25:04] that can be retested.
[00:25:06] I just don't see it.
[00:25:09] It's going to take
[00:25:10] a narrative.
[00:25:12] Somebody's going to
[00:25:12] have to come forward
[00:25:14] and explain what happened.
[00:25:15] If someone comes forward
[00:25:17] with information
[00:25:17] maybe some of the guys
[00:25:19] that were there initially
[00:25:20] should be in
[00:25:21] on that interview.
[00:25:21] We don't have to say
[00:25:22] anything.
[00:25:23] We just sit and listen
[00:25:24] and see if he's
[00:25:25] telling us the truth
[00:25:25] or nothing.
[00:25:26] We've been there
[00:25:27] we've done that.
[00:25:28] I was there four years
[00:25:29] before I left
[00:25:30] the police department
[00:25:31] from 94 to 98
[00:25:32] and then for
[00:25:33] the last
[00:25:35] 30 years
[00:25:36] my daughter's name
[00:25:37] is Beth
[00:25:37] and my name is Bill.
[00:25:39] So every time
[00:25:39] I call my daughter
[00:25:40] I think of this case.
[00:25:54] We all think
[00:25:55] of this case
[00:25:55] periodically
[00:25:56] because it took up
[00:25:56] so much of our lives.
[00:25:57] Every time I drive
[00:25:58] down the line
[00:25:59] I think of this case.
[00:26:00] That's the thing
[00:26:01] that we need to impress
[00:26:02] upon people.
[00:26:02] There are people
[00:26:03] that will say
[00:26:03] well Raleigh didn't
[00:26:04] do a good job
[00:26:04] because they let
[00:26:05] the guy get away.
[00:26:05] I'd have to disagree.
[00:26:07] We did everything
[00:26:08] that we could think
[00:26:09] of to do
[00:26:10] and everything
[00:26:10] that any other agency
[00:26:12] came up with
[00:26:13] that we could do.
[00:26:14] We worked with
[00:26:15] CCBI
[00:26:16] processing evidence
[00:26:17] and discussing
[00:26:19] what the evidence means
[00:26:20] and going back out
[00:26:21] looking for ways
[00:26:21] to plug that all in.
[00:26:22] The clearance rate
[00:26:24] for homicides
[00:26:25] back then
[00:26:26] was phenomenal.
[00:26:28] I mean like
[00:26:28] these guys
[00:26:29] had 98, 99%
[00:26:30] clearance rate.
[00:26:32] So the one
[00:26:33] that got away
[00:26:34] sticks in your cloth.
[00:26:36] It really does.
[00:26:37] Everybody wanted
[00:26:38] this case.
[00:27:10] One of the issues
[00:27:12] with Ricky
[00:27:12] being the suspect
[00:27:14] is the amount
[00:27:15] of time
[00:27:15] that it would have
[00:27:16] taken.
[00:27:23] Let's see how long
[00:27:24] it would have taken
[00:27:25] if it was Ricky
[00:27:26] or a neighbor
[00:27:27] that followed
[00:27:28] Beth Ellen
[00:27:28] that night.
[00:27:41] It takes a while
[00:27:42] just to get out
[00:27:43] of this complex.
[00:27:44] We'll speed things up.
[00:27:53] We filmed this
[00:27:54] at 9pm.
[00:27:56] Without traffic
[00:27:56] at around 3am
[00:27:57] this would all
[00:27:58] happen a little quicker
[00:27:59] so we'll be shaving
[00:28:01] a few minutes off
[00:28:01] at the end.
[00:28:16] So by the time
[00:28:17] they both hit
[00:28:17] the belt line
[00:28:18] he would have had
[00:28:19] this 8 mile stretch
[00:28:20] to flag her down.
[00:28:22] There would have
[00:28:23] been plenty of time
[00:28:24] to persuade
[00:28:25] Beth Ellen
[00:28:25] to pull over
[00:28:26] and have a conversation
[00:28:27] for whatever reason
[00:28:28] was being presented.
[00:28:30] It would have been
[00:28:30] hard to do
[00:28:31] with as many cars
[00:28:32] on the road
[00:28:32] at 9pm
[00:28:33] but at 3am
[00:28:34] when the belt line
[00:28:35] was open
[00:28:36] definitely doable.
[00:28:38] He could have
[00:28:39] pulled up
[00:28:39] right beside her.
[00:28:42] Now here's
[00:28:42] the turn off
[00:28:52] so as you're
[00:28:53] about to see
[00:28:53] the spot
[00:28:54] that Beth Ellen
[00:28:55] ended up
[00:28:56] was about
[00:28:57] the first safe place
[00:28:58] to pull over
[00:29:00] and have this exchange
[00:29:03] but before we get
[00:29:04] there
[00:29:05] let's back up
[00:29:06] and examine
[00:29:07] the theory
[00:29:07] that Beth Ellen
[00:29:08] was lost
[00:29:09] and spotted
[00:29:10] someone
[00:29:11] to ask
[00:29:11] for directions.
[00:29:13] There's two
[00:29:14] factors why
[00:29:14] I find that
[00:29:15] theory
[00:29:15] improbable.
[00:29:16] The time frame
[00:29:17] of actually
[00:29:18] getting lost
[00:29:19] and the location
[00:29:20] of her vehicle.
[00:29:21] So playing this out
[00:29:23] Beth Ellen
[00:29:24] was not lost
[00:29:24] while she was
[00:29:25] on the belt line
[00:29:26] so if we're
[00:29:27] speculating
[00:29:27] that Beth Ellen
[00:29:28] pulled into
[00:29:28] that spot
[00:29:29] to ask for directions
[00:29:31] here's how long
[00:29:31] she would have
[00:29:32] been off course.
[00:29:33] She's still
[00:29:34] heading in the
[00:29:34] right direction
[00:29:35] to go to the
[00:29:35] bankkeeper
[00:29:36] here.
[00:29:36] She would have
[00:29:37] went off course
[00:29:38] right about
[00:29:38] this 15 minute
[00:29:39] mark.
[00:29:40] That's when she
[00:29:41] went south
[00:29:42] instead of north
[00:29:43] on Capitol
[00:29:43] and 10 seconds
[00:29:45] later
[00:29:46] here's where
[00:29:46] she would have
[00:29:47] had to determine
[00:29:47] she's lost
[00:29:48] to take this
[00:29:49] exit for the
[00:29:50] side road
[00:29:50] with the car lots.
[00:29:53] So I question
[00:29:55] would she have
[00:29:56] felt lost
[00:29:56] at this point?
[00:30:01] She had just
[00:30:02] gotten off
[00:30:02] the belt line
[00:30:03] and she just
[00:30:04] saw the sign
[00:30:05] for Capitol.
[00:30:06] She may have
[00:30:06] been going the
[00:30:07] wrong way
[00:30:08] but seems like
[00:30:09] she would have
[00:30:09] still had her
[00:30:10] bearings.
[00:30:11] Now if her
[00:30:12] car was found
[00:30:13] say somewhere
[00:30:14] down here
[00:30:15] or over here
[00:30:16] a ways away
[00:30:18] from Capitol
[00:30:18] and the belt
[00:30:19] line
[00:30:20] then yeah
[00:30:21] I can see
[00:30:22] how she could
[00:30:22] feel so turned
[00:30:23] around
[00:30:23] she would ask
[00:30:25] a stranger
[00:30:25] for directions
[00:30:26] but her vehicle
[00:30:27] was here
[00:30:29] so while it's
[00:30:30] certainly possible
[00:30:31] she got flustered
[00:30:32] and felt lost
[00:30:33] because of how
[00:30:34] close her car
[00:30:35] was to the
[00:30:36] belt line
[00:30:36] and Capitol
[00:30:37] and the 10
[00:30:38] second time
[00:30:38] frame to get
[00:30:39] actually lost
[00:30:40] that theory
[00:30:41] feels less
[00:30:42] likely to me
[00:30:44] now that being
[00:30:45] said if she
[00:30:45] wasn't flagged
[00:30:46] down by someone
[00:30:47] following her
[00:30:47] from the
[00:30:48] apartment complex
[00:30:49] there may have
[00:30:50] been some other
[00:30:51] weird reason
[00:30:52] that she would
[00:30:53] have needed
[00:30:53] to pull over
[00:30:53] in that spot
[00:30:54] and the asking
[00:30:56] for directions
[00:30:57] theory
[00:30:59] makes the most
[00:30:59] sense
[00:31:00] for Beth Ellen
[00:31:01] to pull up
[00:31:01] to a random
[00:31:02] vehicle
[00:31:02] because it really
[00:31:04] does seem like
[00:31:05] there are only
[00:31:06] two possible
[00:31:07] places
[00:31:07] for the suspect
[00:31:09] vehicle to have
[00:31:10] been located
[00:31:13] right here
[00:31:14] parked at the
[00:31:14] lot
[00:31:16] or following her
[00:31:19] if she pulled up
[00:31:20] here because she
[00:31:21] needed to check
[00:31:22] her map
[00:31:22] or whatever
[00:31:25] there wouldn't
[00:31:26] have been
[00:31:26] enough time
[00:31:27] for someone
[00:31:27] else to come
[00:31:27] and snatch
[00:31:28] her
[00:31:29] and there's
[00:31:30] no reason
[00:31:30] for anyone
[00:31:31] to take this
[00:31:31] road at this
[00:31:32] time of night
[00:31:33] the suspect
[00:31:34] vehicle wouldn't
[00:31:34] have been
[00:31:35] randomly coming
[00:31:36] this direction
[00:31:38] and abduct
[00:31:39] Beth Ellen
[00:31:40] they would have
[00:31:41] had no clue
[00:31:41] who was driving
[00:31:42] that vehicle
[00:31:43] how many people
[00:31:44] were in the
[00:31:44] vehicle
[00:31:44] and Beth Ellen
[00:31:46] wouldn't have
[00:31:46] been stopped
[00:31:46] there long
[00:31:47] enough for them
[00:31:48] to roll up
[00:31:48] on her
[00:31:49] figure things
[00:31:50] out
[00:31:50] see there's a
[00:31:51] single girl
[00:31:52] in the vehicle
[00:31:52] and take her
[00:31:54] it would seem
[00:31:55] there are only
[00:31:56] two possible
[00:31:57] locations
[00:31:58] for the suspect
[00:31:59] vehicle to have
[00:32:00] been located
[00:32:01] right here
[00:32:02] already parked
[00:32:03] at the lot
[00:32:03] and she pulled
[00:32:05] up to them
[00:32:06] or they were
[00:32:07] following her
[00:32:14] let's continue
[00:32:15] the time on that
[00:32:23] so driving at
[00:32:24] normal speed
[00:32:25] it would have
[00:32:26] taken about
[00:32:27] two minutes
[00:32:27] to get to Wicker
[00:32:32] he would have
[00:32:33] pulled all the way
[00:32:34] into that parking
[00:32:34] lot and close
[00:32:35] to that corner
[00:32:38] now at Wicker
[00:32:39] we don't know
[00:32:40] how long that
[00:32:40] could have taken
[00:32:41] but you'd have
[00:32:41] to figure somewhere
[00:32:42] between 5 and 15
[00:32:44] minutes
[00:32:44] the killer
[00:32:45] would want his car
[00:32:46] out of that
[00:32:46] parking lot
[00:32:47] as quick as
[00:32:48] possible
[00:32:48] in case another
[00:32:49] car happened to be
[00:32:50] going down that
[00:32:51] road
[00:32:51] so 5 to 15
[00:32:52] minutes seems
[00:32:53] like a fair
[00:32:54] estimate
[00:32:54] since we're
[00:32:58] going down
[00:32:59] 5 minutes
[00:32:59] to the clock
[00:33:01] leaving Wicker
[00:33:02] they would have
[00:33:03] been covered
[00:33:03] with blood
[00:33:04] unless they found
[00:33:05] a hose or
[00:33:06] something right
[00:33:06] around there
[00:33:07] to rinse off
[00:33:07] going down
[00:33:08] capital
[00:33:09] would have
[00:33:09] been the most
[00:33:09] direct route
[00:33:10] but covered
[00:33:11] in blood
[00:33:12] I'm not sure
[00:33:13] about taking
[00:33:13] capital
[00:33:14] a lot of
[00:33:15] lights
[00:33:15] going back
[00:33:17] on the belt
[00:33:17] line
[00:33:17] less chance
[00:33:18] of someone
[00:33:19] to see
[00:33:19] inside the
[00:33:19] vehicle
[00:33:20] but focusing
[00:33:21] on the
[00:33:21] quickest route
[00:33:22] capital
[00:33:23] boulevard
[00:33:23] which at that
[00:33:24] time of night
[00:33:25] catching all
[00:33:26] the lights
[00:33:26] would have
[00:33:27] taken about
[00:33:28] 10 minutes
[00:33:28] bringing the
[00:33:30] total time
[00:33:30] of this run
[00:33:31] through
[00:33:31] up to
[00:33:32] 33 minutes
[00:33:33] now to
[00:33:35] adjust for
[00:33:35] the traffic
[00:33:36] and lights
[00:33:36] we called
[00:33:37] on the way
[00:33:37] to catch
[00:33:38] the belt
[00:33:38] line
[00:33:38] we'll shave
[00:33:39] 3 minutes
[00:33:40] off
[00:33:40] putting it
[00:33:41] right about
[00:33:41] 30 minutes
[00:33:42] you would think
[00:33:43] that would be
[00:33:44] the shortest
[00:33:44] possible timeline
[00:33:46] for someone
[00:33:47] to have
[00:33:47] followed
[00:33:47] Beth Ellen
[00:33:48] from the
[00:33:48] apartment
[00:33:49] complex
[00:33:50] abduct her
[00:33:51] kill her
[00:33:52] and get
[00:33:53] back
[00:33:54] so if
[00:33:56] everyone's
[00:33:57] story
[00:33:57] is that
[00:33:58] Beth Ellen
[00:33:59] left
[00:33:59] 10 to
[00:34:00] 15 minutes
[00:34:00] before
[00:34:01] Brian and
[00:34:01] Walt
[00:34:02] got back
[00:34:03] from
[00:34:03] Walmart
[00:34:04] and when
[00:34:05] they got
[00:34:05] back
[00:34:06] Ricky was
[00:34:07] sitting on
[00:34:07] the couch
[00:34:08] at the
[00:34:08] apartment
[00:34:09] Ricky would
[00:34:10] not have
[00:34:10] had enough
[00:34:11] time
[00:34:11] to commit
[00:34:12] the murder
[00:34:13] and get
[00:34:14] back
[00:34:14] so either
[00:34:20] Ricky
[00:34:20] didn't do
[00:34:21] it
[00:34:22] or they're
[00:34:22] all lying
[00:34:25] but regardless
[00:34:27] we really need
[00:34:28] to pin down
[00:34:29] the time
[00:34:29] Brian and
[00:34:30] Walt
[00:34:30] went to
[00:34:30] Walmart
[00:34:31] when Beth
[00:34:32] Ellen left
[00:34:32] and when
[00:34:33] Walt
[00:34:34] and Brian
[00:34:34] got back
[00:34:39] hopefully
[00:34:39] soon we
[00:34:40] can get
[00:34:40] more clarity
[00:34:41] on that
[00:34:41] we also
[00:34:45] need to
[00:34:45] find out
[00:34:46] what
[00:34:46] Brian and
[00:34:47] Walt
[00:34:47] were getting
[00:34:48] at Walmart
[00:34:51] around 3 a.m.
[00:34:55] there's a lot
[00:34:55] of things we
[00:34:56] still need to
[00:34:56] find out
[00:34:59] but until
[00:35:00] then
[00:35:02] there's a lot
[00:35:03] more to the
[00:35:03] story
[00:35:04] I'm Dr. Amy
[00:35:05] James
[00:35:06] I am a
[00:35:07] clinical
[00:35:08] and forensic
[00:35:09] psychologist
[00:35:09] so I have
[00:35:10] a doctorate
[00:35:11] degree
[00:35:11] in clinical
[00:35:11] psychology
[00:35:12] and I
[00:35:13] specialize
[00:35:13] in forensic
[00:35:14] psychology
[00:35:16] so I
[00:35:17] have looked
[00:35:17] at Beth
[00:35:18] Ellen's case
[00:35:19] the information
[00:35:20] that's been
[00:35:21] available so
[00:35:22] far
[00:35:22] and there's
[00:35:24] a few things
[00:35:24] that stick out
[00:35:24] to me
[00:35:25] that I'm
[00:35:26] interested in
[00:35:27] talking about
[00:35:39] thank you to
[00:35:41] everyone that
[00:35:41] came out for
[00:35:42] our first
[00:35:42] listener
[00:35:42] meetup
[00:35:43] we'll let
[00:35:44] you know
[00:35:44] when we get
[00:35:44] the next
[00:35:45] meetup
[00:35:45] scheduled
[00:35:45] and every
[00:35:46] meetup
[00:35:47] will get
[00:35:48] bigger
[00:35:48] and bigger
[00:35:49] we're not
[00:35:50] going anywhere
[00:35:51] if you have
[00:35:53] information about
[00:35:53] this case
[00:35:54] or know
[00:35:55] someone who
[00:35:55] might
[00:35:55] call
[00:35:56] 1-866-TIPS-4-BE
[00:35:59] that's
[00:36:00] 866-847-7423
[00:36:04] or email us
[00:36:06] at
[00:36:06] whokilledbethellen
[00:36:07] at gmail.com
[00:36:08] 2024
[00:36:10] the year
[00:36:12] of closure
[00:36:12] for her
[00:36:13] family
[00:36:14] and justice
[00:36:18] for Beth
[00:36:19] Ellen
[00:36:19] thank you for
[00:36:21] listening
[00:36:21] and stay
[00:36:22] tuned